As it has been in the Nigerian political system, politicians have started defecting to the ruling party, the APC. Sir, how do you see this development?
The issue you have just raised can be approached from several angles. The one that is of interest to Nigerians is to know that politics has become a business in Nigeria. The idealism behind politics, which is for development, is no longer fashionable in Nigeria. Every politician you see looks at his pocket. And since every business you put your money into you expect some profit, politicians keep on dancing around in order to satisfy their personal cravings. There is no ideology propelling political activities in Nigeria. Is there any difference between the APC and the PDP or any difference between the Labour Party and the SDP? In terms of ideologies, they seem to look alike.
I was just reading a post where a member was saying that under the Second Republic, people knew what UPN stood for: free education and free health. NPN stood for housing for all and stuffs like that. But now we don’t seem to have any of such tendency. What you see is that a man can become a PDP man in the evening but tomorrow morning, he is in APC. There is no conversion process, nothing about ideology. You can fit into any of the political parties.
I recall that when some people in 2013, 2014 and 2015 crossed from PDP to APC, we didn’t see any qualitative difference in terms of programmes and policies that were being pursued. As long as we don’t have any ideological consideration propelling our political activities, as long as we have politicians who are not philosophers in any way, we can’t make a headway.
They are only looking for what to eat, and then coupled with that, the liberal democracy we are practicing seems to condone indiscipline. It doesn’t seem to be strong in terms of ethical values. All what matters to liberal democracy is the good health of the capitalists. So, anything that will make capitalists to make more money is welcomed in liberal democracy. So, taking the totality of these factors into consideration, nobody should be surprised. In fact, there would be more defections.
The country seems to be drifting towards one of party state. If that happens, is it good for the health of the nation?
I’m not thinking we are heading towards one party state. One party state is a legal attainment. There is no law in place yet to say every Nigerian should belong to APC. So, to that extent, let’s say one party-dominant-state, and not one-party state. If you recall, when we had one party state in Tanzania and other places, they came through the legal process. And now there is no law before the National Assembly to say everybody must be in the APC. Rather, we are seeing a tendency where one party is increasingly becoming dominant.
We are seeing a coalition of some political parties. Don’t you think that is capable of dislodging the ruling party?
Coalition or alliances are not new in Nigerian politics. It happened under the First Republic. It also happened under the Second Republic. It’s not new. There’s freedom of association. If you are in one party and you think that you are not getting it, there’s room for you to leave the party. But what is significant about the ongoing coalition for those of us who are in the university is that it is not being driven by any concrete national interest. Rather, people are thinking on how to advance their political career. To some of them, if they don’t become the presidential candidate, the coalition has no meaning. Coalitions are just vehicles being prepared for people to actualise their ambitions. If you look at the PDP, the language, the movement within the party suggest that some people are not welcome again. In order to avoid that, they are talking about merger or coalition, but the point is, given our kind of politics, where it is money-driven, resource-driven, where would the money come from to nurture this idea of coalition to fruition? The people in coalition, are they prepared to do politics differently or carry their contradictions and go into these coalitions?
As a political scientist, I would not be able to condemn the effort because it’s allowed. Anything that will make the voices of the people to be heard, a political scientist should be in support but I’m worried that I’ve not seen enough of consideration of national interest. Rather, I am seeing too much of hatred for a particular politician.
Sir, where lies the fate of average Nigerians in all this? What should they do so that they are not used and dumped as usual?
The idea of citizen engagement is a continuous process. We cannot say because we did it last year, we cannot do it this year.
You have a role; my association also have a role in enlightening Nigerians to be careful about people talking about coalition, be careful about even the current government, and those talking about merger. Make sure they factor in your interests. So far, you do not matter in the process. Whenever you’re being called upon, open your eyes and see what is in the coalition effort that would drive development in a way which will make life more meaningful for you. For now, our association is not saying anyone who is not happy with APC cannot pull out, but we are saying that in the course of taking that decision, consider the plight of Nigerians. If this party is not attaching importance to the welfare of Nigerians, what is your own level of importance? What level of importance are we expecting from you when you take over power?
If it’s a question of all of you are the same, then the incident of low turnout will continue. Why would people not go out to vote if they think the process is for good? But in this country now, we discover that election is about two years away and nothing matters to the politicians than 2027. And in pursuing their agenda, the consideration they give to the people is just too low.
What’s your view of activities of Nigeria’s political parties?
They are the engine room of democracy. If they are healthy, the democracy will perform well and if they are not, it will affect the democracy too. In the context of Nigeria, no one can gain any political position without being in a political party. This means that we cannot ignore the happenings in the political parties. In fact, some of us believe that by the time we focus on the political parties and get them to perform well optimally, 70 percent of Nigerians’ political problems will be solved. But as long as we are saying the government is not performing, ….that wouldn’t work. Because we put the government there, we elected them. So, Nigerians should focus on political parties. Their unhealthy state is negatively affecting democracy in Nigeria. Party leaders have become officers that are on posting. And because they don’t have access to contracts, some people who dictate to them provide them the opportunity. So, they are supposed to be public institutions, but are they really in Nigeria. No. And that’s why some of us in NPSA are of the opinion that one of the ways is government should fund political parties. Let the government do the funding. And the rationale is that, if you give me money and I generate money on my own, I have the right to spend it the way I want it. You only have legitimacy to ask me to account for it. And that’s why INEC hasn’t been totally successful in auditing the accounts of political parties because if you don’t fund them, they look elsewhere and money bags hijack the party and post their personnel assistants to be secretaries and chairmen. And it’s not strange. There are countries where parties are being funded. Put the money down and put an effective mechanism in place. So, if one party is misbehaving, you discipline the party. But I’m saying the role of the party is so critical to the survival of democracy and its growth that we cannot allow money bags to hijack the parties. So, the government or the public should fund the political parties and put measures in place. There are countries which fund political parties, so it’s not new. And it’s been done in Nigeria before.
Prof, agreed that it’s not new, but wouldn’t the ruling government funding the parties use it as a vehicle to put anyone they want in government?
Well, you’ve addressed one leg, the second leg is that, let the people in INEC be independent. Truly independent, not by name. Let them apply the law without fear or favour. But in the case where some appointees of INEC are politicians, you’ve already compromised the level of INEC independence. So, I’m saying, let’s build institutions, not individuals. If you violate the law, the law will catch up with you. And even smaller parties, it will shock you to know that the dominant parties are funding them. It means that the ones being funded by the dominant parties can’t operate independently. They blow hot today, and blow cold tomorrow. So, that’s why we suggest that all efforts should be geared towards empowering party managers. The assumption is that party managers are grown on trees. No, they are carefully selected and trained. When someone has lost an election, the way to compensate will be to become the secretary of a particular party. No. What orientation does he have? What training does he have? And we are saying we can’t continue along that line. There should be a programme to train party officials. And the culture of, ‘I’m the owner of the party’ should stop. Let people who know what to do be given the opportunity.
Talking about consideration for the people, you see an average Nigerian government “dump” projects on communities. How do we address this?
It is because we are practicing the wrong democracy. Democracy does not entail asking people to go and vote alone. It also entails monitoring how the mandate you have given to people is being carried out. Meaning that, it is expected, under a democracy system, that those who are in power should find a way to feel the pulse of the people. So many projects have been initiated without any consideration for the plight of the people. If people are battling with 0-0-1 as we say in the university and you’re coming around to start projects that will cost several billions, they will be looking at you as if you’re not a part of this planet, because you are not addressing their immediate needs. So, that problem has been there. “Go and vote, after election and you have voted me into power, go and sleep.” Whereas democracy cannot be operated that way. It entails participation in the process of empowering a government and also entails monitoring what they do but most Nigerians are only concerned about elections and the leaders are happy about that.
Look around, how many projects have come about due to active participation. So, what is lacking in Nigeria democracy is that the people have been dropped under the bus.
So, what is the way out?
The way out is to continue giving enlightenment to our people in the sense that they are critical stakeholders. They need not accept the role that politicians have carved for them in terms of just voting and sitting down. No government would give you accountability and transparency unless you demand for them. Unfortunately, Nigerian populace seems to be docile. They seem not to know their rights and our politicians have been doing whatever they like because of that. People can organise themselves because demonstration is part of democracy, writing petitions or appeal is also part of democracy. But how many people will be allowed to air their view on any proposed government policy without police being mobilised to go and disperse them?
And that should not be the case. By the time you discuss your proposal with me, I’m likely to feel it from another angle and at the end of the day if you formulate a policy, it would be something that would meet the expectation of the people but by the time you drive away people outside the cycle of policy environment, what do you expect? You end up formulating policies for yourself and not for the people.
Insurgency in Nigeria has continued, without a mention of just a financier as promised. Do we go on like this?
Let me say that you are looking at one leg of the problem and I’m looking at the bigger leg. By the time democracy keeps on dropping people under the bus, you make them available to all kinds of skill.
The kind of politics where people are not central to it is the bane of insecurity in Nigeria. Billions are being earmarked for projects, which of them has impacted positively on the people? If you formulate policy without having the mind of empowering the people, you spend 8 years, 5 years or 4 years on it continuously, people’s welfare is being neglected. They say an idle hand is the devil’s workshop. I wrote in that press release you cited, how come Nigerians are having more confidence in bandits, in terrorists to the extent of giving them intelligence? While the state is losing control, they are more comfortable giving information to bandits and terrorists than giving to the Nigerian state. Fundamentally, this shows that there’s a huge disconnect. In the past in Nigeria, when government called on people, they will respond but because of legitimacy crisis and disconnect, people don’t attach much importance because the government itself is not attaching importance to the people. Yet, we want to develop. How can we develop?
Development is a process that involves government and the people. But in the case where the people have been abandoned, they leave government to its fate. And that’s the problem we are having. People are not backing government the way they should. Government is also not working hard to gain the support of the people. And as long as we have that kind of environment, insecurity, poverty and everything put together is what would be happening. So, the government is not closer to the people.
In most of the states, the governors are moving in one direction and the people are moving in another direction. To the extent that in some states, the governor has to bribe some people to attend rallies, programmes and official functions. Why would you need to bribe them? It means that you are not representing them.
What they did during the campaign is what we are seeing now. They bribed people to attend their campaigns and rallies which is not the correct attitude towards political development. It should be willingness. Nobody should be coerced. You can’t impose tax without people seeing the impact.
There are hues and cries over declaration of state of emergency in Rivers State. What’s the view of the association about this?
We made a release, which we circulated and we called it the Rivers State Debacle. Our position is that we cannot be finger-pointing at this stage but rather to appeal to all the people involved. In our release, we hammered on the minister and the governor, and somewhere along the line, we also brought in the federal government into it. The Rivers’ thing is not difficult to explain, it’s a reflection of the kind of politics where politics must bring profit. One party was talking about somebody destroying the structure. Why are you so concerned about the structure? Is it for profit maximization? Why is the governor doing whatever he’s doing, pulling and burning down the House of Assembly? He’s also doing that so that he’ll have more control over the resources of the state for the benefit of those who are claiming to be backing him. There’s nothing wrong with the land of Rivers State, there’s nothing wrong with the weather of Rivers State, but a lot is wrong with the political gladiators themselves.
What do you proffer as solution to the myriad of problems in Nigeria?
How I wish I have answers to your question? But I will try to talk about the super structure, and not about regime or individual. You should notice that Liberal Democracy was not developed to cater for the welfare of generality of the people. If you’re looking for the kind of democracy that would bring succour to the people, don’t look in the direction of Liberal democracy. Liberal democracy has its own inherent contradiction, but Nigeria has manufactured her own contradiction to join with the inherent contradiction of Liberal democracy. This means that with this Nigeria manufactured contradiction, an inbuilt contradiction of liberal democracy, nothing will happen. It was designed to cater for the interest of the capitalists. If you don’t have, you don’t have. So, if you’re looking for something that will make people to be central, we have to do something about the Liberal democracy. Our people are docile, and the government is wicked. A woman who sells tomatoes somewhere in Nigeria, the level of her working capital for selling tomatoes may not be more than N20,000 or N30,000 and if you want to deny her access to where she’s selling her goods, you need to engage with her and think of alternatives. But in a Nigeria situation, it’s brute force. They will send the woman away and lock them up. That’s not the way to do it. So, our people too must be ready because after attaining democracy, they must be ready to defend democracy. No politician will give you your right in a democracy unless you demand it. The third thing that is happening is that Nigeria, whether under Military or Civilian government, has never experienced good governance and where you don’t have this, all kinds of tendencies will come in. In the past, it was unethical for somebody to take government money illegally. But that kind of value orientation has disappeared. In fact, the more money you can steal, the more you are celebrated. So, our value system is wrong. Fourthly, anywhere that production is not going up, will experience insecurity, poverty, and banditry because there are no jobs. A man with a job wouldn’t be willing to serve as a spy to insurgents. We have been battling unemployment for a long time now. Every year students leave the universities without a job to do. So, we have unemployed people of 15 years standing and we keep on producing more people who will eventually be unemployed. So, when this happens, you shouldn’t be surprised that some of these negative things are happening. Our environment is so monetized. We celebrate those with money irrespective of their sources of income. To the extent that every average young man wants to catch up. Telling him this or that, he wouldn’t listen. We turn out thousands of graduates, how many of them are employed? Yet, the irony of it is that the people who should be bothered about this are not. Therefore, there is lowering of level of patriotism because even the government has abandoned people. So, if they are now imposing taxes, fine? But have they opened the economy for people to afford to pay these taxes? If you’re closing shops, what are the alternatives given to them? There should be an alternative. You need to engage with them.
How many years do you think a government should spend in office?
I’ve spoken about it. Don’t let us chase the shadows. These politicians we’re talking about are Nigerians. If you ask me to spend two years in office, whatever I want to do is what I will do. If you make it 7 years, I will do whatever I want to do. I don’t think we need to invest our time on whether it’s a single term or not, but rather, what do we do about the attitude of our politicians? Politics is the only thriving business. They are always looking for ways to invest and get their money back. What is the quality of the elections we’ve been having? Have we been having serious elections really? You and I know that all our elections are padded. Now, the man who spent 8 years is thinking of installing somebody. If he spends 5 years, he would install. We’ve been dancing in the same circle. We are not making any progress. So, let’s think about something serious. Our politicians don’t know their role, and anytime you want to wake them up from their slumber, they get angry. They don’t want people to talk, they prefer the quietness. Go to all the states, are the governors doing projects and policies that are beneficial to people? Ask yourself and get the answer. So, I’m saying that it’s democracy that one of our professors once called democracy of dis-empowering the people. Democracy of disempowerment. That’s what we are practicing. Now, in the past, if you have a small company, you can run it successfully and make your money. But now, any company you have must have a leg in government. Because they can pull you down. What’s the level of support the Nigerian government is giving private operators? So, what I’m essentially saying is that, our democracy is not attaching importance to the people. And unless we get it to that point where it is central to it, our democracy will fumble.
How do you see Nigeria’s foreign relations?
Nigeria foreign policy has been disappointing a lot of keen watchers because of where we are coming from. Where we are coming from is the history of assertiveness. Nigeria has no question providing leadership. But the view of some people is that over the years, we’ve been receding in the international system. And our view is that Nigeria would continue to decline in the global recognition because of domestic problems. If the domestic problems are not managed properly, there would be no respect. There’s this intricate relationship between the domestic and external environment. As long as we keep on having mounting problems domestically, our foreign policy can’t be strong or effective. In addition, the orientation of our government towards neoliberal economy principles can’t make us assertive in the international system because the people you are practicing their policies and programmes, on the pretence that they will give assistance, the government will be much more interested in pleasing the external world than satisfying the people. Unfortunately, when things go wrong, no American or Britain will come to Nigeria, in fact, they will hold you responsible and blame you. This means that our leaders should take the country’s destiny in their hands. When things are going well, you have a lot of friends, as we had in the 70s. Now that things are not good, we have quite a lot of enemies. We have some of them masquerading, some of them coming out clearly. And the Trump phenomenon is something the Tinubu government should watch carefully. Trump has a lot of information about Nigeria which he had sourced through opposition. And like Professor Bolaji Akinyemi said that the best thing for Nigeria will be to avoid Trump. Don’t react to him, rather work underground to strengthen yourself, because this is a man that’s unstable. And my suspicion is that, he’s been fed with a lot of information about Nigeria, and doesn’t see Nigeria the way the government is seeing itself.